Group therapy is for LOSERS, like us [S2.E8]
Picture this: three former pastors, all wearing their battle scars from public failures, gather to chat about something super important—sitting with pain instead of throwing around advice like confetti at a party. Jean, Byron, and Tullian kick off the convo by admitting how hard it is to be real when the world expects you to put on a brave face. They dive into the messy reality of life, where sometimes all you need is a buddy to sit in the darkness with you, instead of trying to fix everything with a bunch of well-meaning clichés. It’s like when you're watching a sad movie and just need someone to hand you the popcorn instead of telling you to cheer up. They get into group therapy vibes, where people can spill their guts without judgment, and how that kind of vulnerability can actually be healing. By the end, they're all about that radical grace—where the biggest screw-ups are just the folks Jesus is looking to rescue.
In this wild ride of an episode, we tackle the tough stuff—pain, heartbreak, and why advice isn’t always the answer. The guys share stories of their own struggles, showing that it’s okay to be a hot mess. They explore the beauty of being present for others without trying to fix them. Think of it as being a lifeguard who actually knows how to swim! They stress that the best thing we can do sometimes is just sit there, be a listening ear, and create a safe space where honesty can actually happen. The humor is sprinkled throughout as they share their own misadventures, reminding us that laughter can be a balm, too. So, grab some snacks, kick back, and let’s get real about the messy, glorious journey of life together!
Takeaways:
- Sometimes, the best thing we can do for others is to just sit with their pain and not rush to give advice.
- Group therapy with honest, unmasked conversations can be a powerful healing tool for everyone involved.
- People often seek comfort in unhealthy ways, and it's important to address those root issues together.
- Creating a safe space for honesty is crucial, especially in places where vulnerability is often met with judgment.
Transcript
It's a trap.
Speaker A:I can't talk to anybody, can't be honest with anybody.
Speaker A:What is the solution?
Speaker A:Where do I go?
Speaker A:Group therapy with non Christians.
Speaker A:Join a group and have honest conversations with people that are going to be a vault themselves.
Speaker A:Put your shit out there and have somebody with authority tell you the truth and guide you.
Speaker B:If you don't have a group that you know of or that you feel comfortable going to find an AA meeting, you don't have to be an alcoholic to sit in a circle and listen to people.
Speaker B:You don't even have to talk.
Speaker B:But hearing other people tell the truth about themselves, hearing other people unmasked will help you.
Speaker C:We give this paradigm where we say there are surface sins and then there are root sins.
Speaker C:Underneath this stuff, underneath are the kind of things we want to talk because everybody sees the.
Speaker C:And you already know this thing is a disaster.
Speaker C:There is something for which you are seeking comfort, counsel, approval, whatever that is, that.
Speaker C:That medicator is there, whether it's sex, drugs, porn, gambling.
Speaker C:I don't care what it is.
Speaker C:You're medicating something.
Speaker A:I had a friend call me, leading a church in the Midwest, and he says, I need you to come up here.
Speaker A:He was completely broken and shattered, and he goes, I've been gay my entire life and married my wife to fix myself.
Speaker A:She knew it and recently broke down and had an affair with another man.
Speaker B:She did.
Speaker A:He did.
Speaker A:He did.
Speaker A:He did.
Speaker A:Sin overcame him.
Speaker A:The struggle overcame him.
Speaker A:However you want to describe it, she's done, she's leaving.
Speaker A:That's the horizontal consequence, right?
Speaker A:He goes, I need you to go in with the.
Speaker A:To the board with me tomorrow so that I can tell them the shit hits the fan.
Speaker B:You're listening to the misfit preachers, Talian Chavigian, Jean Larue, and Byron Yan from ProdigalPodcast.com we're plagiarizing Jesus one podcast at a time.
Speaker B:Now, here are the misfits.
Speaker A:Let me turn.
Speaker A:Can I use the word practical in front of you without you attacking me?
Speaker B:I was a philosophy major in college.
Speaker B:We hate practicality.
Speaker B:Yes, please.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So the question is, it's a trap.
Speaker A:I can't talk to anybody, can't be honest with anybody.
Speaker A:What is the solution?
Speaker A:Where do I go?
Speaker A:I don't want to end up like Byron.
Speaker A:Yes and no.
Speaker A:What.
Speaker A:What in the world do do we do?
Speaker A:Where do we go?
Speaker A:Where do.
Speaker A:Where do we.
Speaker A:Where do we break the surface to breathe the air?
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Breach.
Speaker A:And here's.
Speaker A:Here's my answer to that question.
Speaker B:I have one, too.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:I was like, are we not going to get the answer?
Speaker A:Back off, man.
Speaker A:Back off.
Speaker A:Group therapy with non Christians.
Speaker A:Join a group.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Led by a skilled director, moderator, therapist, whatever.
Speaker A:And have honest conversations with people that are going to be a vault themselves.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:And put your out there and have somebody with authority tell you the truth and guide you through it.
Speaker B:And I think that will help anybody personally agree.
Speaker A:What's, what's, what's the irony of me saying that, Sean, Giving that advice?
Speaker A:Because I haven't taken.
Speaker C:Oh, yeah.
Speaker C:You.
Speaker C:You're believing that by proxy.
Speaker A:But you can speak into it.
Speaker A:I want you to speak it.
Speaker B:I think that.
Speaker B:And I said in another episode that.
Speaker A:And make your elders pay for it.
Speaker B:If you don't have a group that you know of or that you feel comfortable going to find an A meeting.
Speaker B:You don't have to be an alcoholic to sit in a circle and listen to people.
Speaker B:You don't even have to talk.
Speaker B:But hearing other people tell the truth about themselves, hearing other people unmasked will help you.
Speaker A:Would you recommend that they wear disguises to these or.
Speaker B:No, no.
Speaker B:It's Alcoholics Anonymous.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:They're committed to anonymity there.
Speaker B:But here's what I would say.
Speaker B:Here's the caveat to that.
Speaker B:I think what you recommended, what I just recommended, is helpful.
Speaker B:Personally, professionally.
Speaker B:There is no way out.
Speaker B:And what I mean by that is the way the church is set up and it's not going away.
Speaker B:The way it is currently set up does not allow for this to happen.
Speaker B:It doesn't.
Speaker B:So there is no hope.
Speaker B:If you want to.
Speaker B:If you want to be a pastor in the current setting that you're in, most likely you are never going to feel the freedom in that setting to tell the truth about yourself and to be unmasked and to not put up a facade.
Speaker B:It's never going to happen.
Speaker B:The only reason, not the only reason, one of the reasons we started this place was because Stacy and I needed this place.
Speaker B:And we created this place to be the only place that I know of where I, as the pastor, can tell the truth about myself and be unmasked without losing my livelihood, my life, my community, my friends, all that stuff.
Speaker B:I say all that to say I have zero hope whatsoever that professional Christians in the current setup will ever be able to be honest and keep their jobs.
Speaker B:I don't believe it.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:I mean, I've seen it.
Speaker B:It is.
Speaker B:There is.
Speaker B:I am not an optimist when it comes to this, and I'm not A pessimist.
Speaker B:I'm a realist when it comes to this.
Speaker A:The irony is their inability to be honest in their jobs is what leads to them losing their jobs.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:Because when that stuff gets in there and.
Speaker C:And you've got.
Speaker C:I mean, the question.
Speaker C:I mean, you asked the question, what do you do?
Speaker C:And I agree with, like, there's a personal sense about what you do in that.
Speaker C:And where I would start is.
Speaker C:And where I would say what we can really offer, if you listen back to our stories, we give this paradigm where we say there are surface sins and then there are root sins underneath that are there.
Speaker C:This stuff underneath are the kind of things we want to talk about because everybody sees the.
Speaker C:And you already know this thing is a disaster.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker C:But there is something.
Speaker C:There is something for which you are seeking comfort, counsel, approval, whatever that is, that.
Speaker C:That medicator is there, whether it's sex, drugs, porn, gambling, I don't care what it is.
Speaker C:You're medicating something and you need people that you can walk with you.
Speaker B:And let me illustrate this, sort of prove this point.
Speaker B:I was speaking somewhere and a guy who, a staff guy came up to me in between sessions and was talking to me.
Speaker B:And I can't say for certain, but I'm pretty sure that this guy was gay.
Speaker B:He wasn't hitting on me.
Speaker B:He wasn't being in any way inappropriate toward me.
Speaker B:I could just.
Speaker B:I have gay friends.
Speaker B:I can usually tell.
Speaker B:And yet this guy was married with a couple of kids, and being in the church that he served, I could tell.
Speaker B:This is, you know, there's no way in hell this guy could actually be honest here.
Speaker B:So I come home from that trip.
Speaker B:Stacy asked me how it went.
Speaker B:I told her about this guy, and I really, I liked him.
Speaker B:Like, he was intelligent.
Speaker B:We had a great conversation.
Speaker B:And I said, I can't be certain, but I'm pretty sure he's gay.
Speaker B:Pretty sure.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And I said, and there is no way, no way this guy is ever going to be able to tell the church where he serves.
Speaker B:He's not going to be able to tell a person in the church.
Speaker B:He's not going to be able to tell his church board.
Speaker B:He's not going to be able to tell his senior pastor.
Speaker B:There is no way.
Speaker B:I said, this is what's going to happen.
Speaker B:If it's true.
Speaker B:What I'm saying that he is gay.
Speaker B:What's going to happen is that's not just going to go away.
Speaker B:He's going to sneak over here and sneak over there and sneak Here, there, and everywhere.
Speaker B:And maybe it's 10 years from now, but at some point, he's going to get caught.
Speaker B:Someone's going to see him somewhere, something, words going to get out, he's going to get caught.
Speaker B:And what will happen in that moment is that he will be demonized, Demonized by the very people who made it impossible for him to come clean, to be honest, to share his struggle, to help with his family fallout, all that stuff.
Speaker B:And so I looked at my wife Stacy, when I was telling her this, and I said, churches are culpable in this.
Speaker A:Agreed.
Speaker B:I mean, they are absolutely culpable to the degree that you are a contributing factor to the facade that the focus of the Christian faith is the pure life of the Christian.
Speaker B:To the degree that you contribute to that bullshit, you are culpable for the secrets that pastors keep.
Speaker B:I'm not blaming them for the secrets.
Speaker B:But even if a pastor wanted to share his secrets, if a staff member felt compelled to share his secrets, they have created an environment where doing so is impossible.
Speaker A:Agreed.
Speaker B:Impossible.
Speaker B:And that, sadly, is not going to change.
Speaker B:I wish it would.
Speaker B:It's not.
Speaker B:That's why I'm more a believer in recovery places than local churches.
Speaker A:Amen.
Speaker C:If.
Speaker C:I mean, I would.
Speaker C:If somebody says that, is such a pessimist, you know, glass half empty.
Speaker C:What I want to say is, then tell us how it gets fixed.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Or you want to prove it.
Speaker B:I mean, there was a.
Speaker B:I was doing a Q A with a church staff one time, and I was saying some of these things, and one of the staff members, idealistic seminary student type, said, but you're speaking so pessimistically about the church, which is the bride of Christ.
Speaker B:And he.
Speaker B:All the lofty theological language.
Speaker B:And I said, yeah, I hear you.
Speaker B:I get that.
Speaker B:But I'll tell you what.
Speaker B:You tell me how beautiful the bride of Christ is.
Speaker B:The way you're describing it, when you stand up in front of your church and tell them you cheated on your first wife, see what they do?
Speaker B:You tell me.
Speaker B:So all of it is theory, it's all idealism until it happens.
Speaker B:And then you realize, I can't.
Speaker B:I can't.
Speaker B:I cannot be honest here.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's kind of like this.
Speaker A:The sport of free drive, free diving.
Speaker A:Hold your breath and hope you make it.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I read through the book of Hebrews recently.
Speaker A:I just say that to impress my friends here.
Speaker C:That's great.
Speaker B:In Greek.
Speaker C:Did you.
Speaker C:I was going to ask whether it was Greek, Latin.
Speaker A:I had the fourth edition in my hand.
Speaker C:Oh, just checking, Lunita.
Speaker A:Yes, just checking the textual apparatus when I came across a word I was curious about.
Speaker A:But anyway, I got to the Christ, the high priest.
Speaker A:And every priest dies.
Speaker A:You need a high priest that's eternal.
Speaker A:But in there, one of the points the preacher makes in the book is that.
Speaker A:And the priest had to sacrifice for themselves first.
Speaker A:And it was a very, very blatant testimony of the fact that that was a broken, sinful human being like everybody else.
Speaker A:And their choice in that role wasn't any evidence of a difference in the quality of the person that they are.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Because it's a graphic death.
Speaker A:I need this to do this for you because you need this as well.
Speaker A:But I can't get there unless this thing dies for me as well.
Speaker A:So they had blood on their hands as human beings.
Speaker C:Well.
Speaker C:And a rope tied around their waist because it was such an impending doom.
Speaker C:Drag their body out.
Speaker A:Our context, it doesn't have that right.
Speaker A:We can't.
Speaker A:It doesn't.
Speaker A:Anyway, people's perception is much different in our roles as pastors and leaders.
Speaker A:I had a friend call me, great guy, smart guy, leading a church in the Midwest.
Speaker A:And he calls me one night and he says, I need you to come up here.
Speaker A:And I said, okay, Wayne, I've got some free time in a couple weeks.
Speaker A:And he goes, I mean, tomorrow I'll buy your airline ticket.
Speaker A:And he goes, my world came crashing down.
Speaker A:I'm meeting with my elder board tomorrow.
Speaker A:I need you to be there.
Speaker A:I have to tell him something.
Speaker A:They're not going to be there to believe, but I have to tell him.
Speaker A:My wife caught me.
Speaker A:I have to tell him, okay, I'm there, get on a plane, fly to this town, meet him.
Speaker A:It's like 9:00.
Speaker A:He was completely broken and shattered, exhausted, a shell of himself.
Speaker A:Just like I looked when somebody had compassion on me at some point in my life.
Speaker A:I recognized him and me later, right?
Speaker A:So I said, what is it, brother?
Speaker A:Well, how can I help?
Speaker A:Like, no information on the ride.
Speaker A:He was totally silent on the ride from the airport to the house.
Speaker A:We sit down at his kitchen table.
Speaker A:It's like one o'clock in the morning.
Speaker A:We're drinking coffee, which is a huge no, no for me at 1 o'clock in the morning.
Speaker A:And he goes, I've been gay my entire life and married my wife to fix myself.
Speaker A:She knew it and recently broke down and had an affair with another man.
Speaker B:She did.
Speaker A:He did.
Speaker A:He did, he did.
Speaker A:Sin overcame him.
Speaker A:The struggle overcame him.
Speaker A:However you want to describe It.
Speaker A:And she is.
Speaker A:She's done.
Speaker A:She's leaving.
Speaker A:That's the horizontal consequence, Right.
Speaker A:That's simple math.
Speaker A:You do this, you get that.
Speaker A:And he goes, I need you to go in with the.
Speaker A:To the board with me tomorrow so that I can tell them before the hits the fan.
Speaker A:I was like, this should be fun.
Speaker A:So we go to.
Speaker B:He's this.
Speaker B:He was the senior pastor of this senior pastor.
Speaker A:Been there for a very long time.
Speaker A:Over 10 years, right.
Speaker A:So we go sit down with his board, who, like, don't know what's coming, but know what's coming.
Speaker A:If there's never been an emergency meeting called to all the elders and leaders out there, if you ever get one, assume the worst, right?
Speaker A:So we sit down with them and we work through kind of.
Speaker A:There's no good way to deliver bad news.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:There's no angle at reentering the earth that something doesn't burn.
Speaker A:So he sits down with them and just begins to weep and weep and not weep in.
Speaker A:I've been caught.
Speaker A:He weeped in a.
Speaker A:I'm so relieved to have this secret out and off my back.
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker A:And it resonated with them.
Speaker A:They knew what he was weeping for, right?
Speaker A:Contrition, repentance, relief.
Speaker A:He breached the surface, breathed the air, and then he told them the story exactly like that.
Speaker A:Struggled with this forever.
Speaker A:Got married to fix it.
Speaker A:Couldn't.
Speaker A:Marriage broke down, did this.
Speaker A:She's leaving.
Speaker A:For the first time ever, a unicorn ran through the room being ridden by Bigfoot.
Speaker A:Like the chairman gets up, comes around.
Speaker C:The table, shut up.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:Like Rembrandts.
Speaker A:Prodigal painting hugs this man.
Speaker A:Now, I don't know any elder that would hug someone that confesses to struggle with homosexuality or even be near them, period, in the conservative church.
Speaker A:And the next thing you know, I'm crushed up against them because 10 men are weeping over this man.
Speaker A:And I think just blown away by the burden he's been carrying, what he did to himself.
Speaker A:They didn't excoriate him.
Speaker A:They didn't run him out on a rail.
Speaker A:They did what should have been done.
Speaker A:They gave him a very long Runway, created an exit plan, and did the wise thing.
Speaker A:You shouldn't be in ministry now.
Speaker A:You need to go heal and work on yourself.
Speaker A:And cared for this man so delicately that it really changed my paradigm forever.
Speaker A:Because as much as I wanted to say that I can be accepting of any circumstance, I'd never seen it done on that level before.
Speaker A:And so my question is, how do you create that as a culture in a context that allows people to be protected from themselves in those circumstances, to get that capacity to confess and people receive and hold something.
Speaker B:I don't have any.
Speaker A:Let me.
Speaker A:What are you about to say?
Speaker A:Say it.
Speaker B:I was getting ready to.
Speaker A:I know, but I can't believe this is coming out of your mouth.
Speaker A:Go ahead.
Speaker B:I don't have any answer to this.
Speaker A:That is wrong.
Speaker B:No, it's wrong.
Speaker A:Listen to me.
Speaker A:You.
Speaker A:You created that.
Speaker B:I'm about to say that.
Speaker A:And you gave it.
Speaker A:You gave it to me.
Speaker A:All of my pastoral peers completely rejected me.
Speaker A:My world turned into a ghost town and I needed them.
Speaker A:And when you're down as low as I am, I don't care about anybody's criticism of me at all.
Speaker A:I just needed to get near humanity and be loved and be heard.
Speaker A:I needed to be loved and be heard.
Speaker A:And he did that for me.
Speaker A:And you've done that for me.
Speaker A:And I was lost.
Speaker A:I was lost.
Speaker A:I had no hope.
Speaker A:I had no idea.
Speaker A:I could care less of whether I was used in this capacity ever or not.
Speaker A:It wasn't my ambition.
Speaker A:And that's what most people go for first.
Speaker A:That's not what I went for.
Speaker A:And that's what people assume is going to happen.
Speaker A:All I wanted was some friends.
Speaker B:You've been listening to the misfit preachers.
Speaker B:Like subscribe and share more grace centered resources@prodigalpodcasts.com that's Prodigal P R O D I G A L podcasts with an s dot com.
