Inside the Glass House: Byron Yawn Q&A [S1.E7]
The Misfit Preachers engage in a profound conversation that delves into the complexities of recovery, repentance, and the human condition. Tully, Byron, and Jean explore the often-hidden struggles faced by pastors and Christian leaders who grapple with secrets and the burden of maintaining a facade of perfection. Byron shares his journey of acknowledging his mistakes and the process of making amends, emphasizing that true recovery is a lifelong endeavor that requires sincerity and vulnerability. The discussion highlights the importance of community and accountability in navigating the challenges of faith and personal growth. Tully reflects on the reality that everyone is in recovery from something, challenging the listeners to consider their own hidden struggles and the need for grace in their lives.
The podcast episode takes an introspective turn as the hosts discuss the pressures of pastoral life and the societal expectations that hinder honesty and genuineness. Byron's candid recounting of his past mistakes serves as a catalyst for a larger conversation about the environment within church culture that often discourages transparency. The hosts emphasize that true repentance does not seek the approval of others but stems from a deep understanding of one's actions and their impact on loved ones. This episode serves as a call to action for both leaders and congregants to embrace authenticity, confront their issues head-on, and foster an environment where grace can flourish amid brokenness.
Throughout the episode, the theme of grace emerges as a powerful antidote to guilt and shame. The Misfit Preachers question the traditional views of sin and redemption, suggesting that real healing occurs when individuals confront their vulnerabilities rather than hide from them. The conversation also touches on the paradox of grace and accountability, exploring how individuals can navigate their failures without being paralyzed by them. As the episode unfolds, listeners are encouraged to reflect on their own journeys, consider the importance of community support, and recognize that no one is exempt from the need for grace and redemption. Ultimately, this episode serves as an invitation to embrace the messy, beautiful process of being human in a world that often demands perfection.
Takeaways:
- Recovery is a lifelong process that requires a deep dive into one's own life and feelings, acknowledging both surface issues and deeper ones.
- Honesty in communication is vital; pretending to be more honest than one truly is can be detrimental to recovery and relationships.
- Making amends is not just about apologizing to others, but also involves acknowledging the pain caused to loved ones and working through that guilt.
- Pastors and church leaders often struggle with secrets, fearing that vulnerability may lead to losing their position or community approval.
- Self-awareness is crucial in recovery; understanding one's motivations helps in navigating the complexities of relationships and personal growth.
- The environment of the church can create a culture where leaders feel they cannot be honest, leading to isolation and hidden struggles.
Links referenced in this episode:
Transcript
Because of everything I went through, I too have a pretty good radar for bullshit.
Tully:That was honest, it was sincere.
Tully:It was clearly stated.
Tully:If recovery is a lifelong process, what does that look like?
Byron:Have only just begun.
Byron:And I'm so excited about figuring out how jacked up I really am.
Byron:I'm grateful for the suffering that has occurred because it's cracked that wide open.
Jean:We like to talk about our sin like nicely packaged sermon illustrations.
Jean:Like, the end of it was this victorious moment.
Jean:We all had a hug and we pray the Lord's Prayer.
Jean:It was amazing.
Jean:And you're like, yeah, we're still find it hard to talk to each other sometimes.
Byron:I tried everything.
Byron:I've applied for bar back jobs, FedEx warehouse, and you do that online.
Byron:They Google your name.
Byron:You're done.
Byron:I'd be saying something and, hey, can I talk to you for a minute?
Byron:And he.
Byron:He would roll the eyes of his heart and he would listen for a minute and he would go, you're so full of.
Byron:No footnotes, no qualifiers.
Byron:Just kept stirring the gumbo.
Byron:And I was like, yeah, you're right.
Byron:Just walk out.
Jean:Well, as my therapist says, if you spot it, you got it.
Byron:You run from it.
Byron:You can't be convince.
Byron:You're going to fight for people to blame.
Byron:It's everybody's fault.
Byron:It's my mom's fault.
Byron:The greater the sin, the more terrifying it is.
Byron:Greater the sin when it happens, the more liberating it is.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Tully:What would you say to the pastor or to the Christian leader?
Tully:They have secrets and they know they have secrets, and there's no way in hell they can share those secrets with anybody.
Tully:You're listening to the Misfit Preachers, Talian Chavijian, Jean Leroux, and Byron.
Tully:Byron Yon.
Tully:From ProdigalPodcast.com, we're plagiarizing Jesus one podcast at a time.
Tully:Now here are the Misfits.
Jean:Hi, and welcome back to Misfit Preachers.
Jean:I'm Jean Le Roux.
Jean:Glad to be here with you.
Jean:I've also got Byron.
Jean:Yawn.
Byron:Howdy.
Jean:Hi, Byron and Tully and Javidian.
Tully:I love the way you guys pronounce my name so well.
Byron:I want you guys to refer to me from now on as Baronius Maximus.
Jean:Hard note.
Tully:It sounds regal.
Byron:Sounds regal like your name.
Jean:Yeah, it is.
Jean:I mean, it's a good.
Jean:I mean, his name.
Tully:I was named after the early church Father Tertullian and my mom.
Tully:Rumor has it that for the first four days of my life, my whole name was William Graham Tertullian.
Tully:Shavigian.
Tully:And thankfully, after the drug.
Tully:After the drugs wore off.
Byron:Ayahuasca.
Tully:No, after the drugs wore off and she came home, she dropped the tur.
Tully:Thank God.
Tully:So it's just.
Jean:That is like, hey, I've got a prank we're going to play for the rest of his life.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Jean:Okay.
Tully:When Stacy and I got married, we went to get our married license, obviously before.
Tully:And the woman at the counter was looking at her name.
Tully:Her maid names Phillips.
Jean:Oh, really?
Tully:Looking at my name.
Tully:And she looks at me and she takes her glasses off and she says, you know, you can take her last name if you know, yes, that was legal.
Tully:And I said, you know, I've never been tempted by something so much in my life.
Byron:It sounds like it belongs to Nadoskieski.
Tully:It does.
Byron:It's like Russ C.
Byron:At least from.
Tully:That part of the world.
Jean:All these big words.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Jean:Dostoevsky.
Byron:It's a book you wouldn't understand.
Jean:I know.
Jean:I was like, isn't that that chocolate that comes in a triangle?
Jean:Isn't that Dosi?
Tully:Dude, that is Toblerone to.
Tully:That's Swiss.
Byron:Which could be.
Jean:Same thing.
Jean:We all know it's the same thing.
Tully:Could be.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Jean:It's not.
Jean:It's not America.
Jean:So it's the same.
Byron:Same as Elvis would say, same.
Byron:So different.
Jean:Okay.
Tully:Yeah.
Jean:What we want to do is just take a few minutes and be.
Jean:Oh, I did the.
Jean:I feel so judged.
Byron:I'm counter.
Tully:Keep going now.
Jean:You know, forget he's rolling.
Jean:Going, shit.
Tully:Keep going.
Jean:Why did you say that to me?
Byron:Because.
Byron:So you're gonna.
Jean:We're gonna take just a minute and focus on asking Byron some questions, some follow up on his testimony that he gave couple of weeks ago and confession, not test, confession, testimony.
Jean:But to be able to follow up and ask some questions about that.
Jean:I'll let you lead off and then I've got a couple.
Tully:Yeah.
Tully:Well, thank you for sharing.
Tully:I mean, thank you for the opportunity.
Tully:As I told you off camera, that was incredibly powerful, both in content and delivery.
Tully:Your sincerity is obviously because of everything I went through.
Tully:I too have a pretty good radar for bullshit and someone who's pretending to be more honest than they are.
Tully:And that was honest, it was sincere.
Tully:It was clearly stated, well articulated.
Tully:You hit all the notes.
Tully:All the notes.
Tully:I mean, as you were speaking, I'm sitting over here, just thank God, thank God, thank God, thank God.
Tully:Like you get it, dude.
Tully:And that's huge and a huge gift to anybody who's listening that there is a process sometimes it's longer, sometimes it's shorter.
Tully:But there is a process that requires a deep dive.
Byron:Yeah.
Tully:And your distinction regarding the on the surface stuff and the under the surface stuff and how two things can be true at the same time.
Tully:Dead on apps.
Tully:I mean, you are, without even realizing it, you are speaking recovery language in a very articulate.
Byron:I realized that yesterday.
Tully:Yes.
Tully:Very, very articulate way of describing what recovery is all about.
Tully:And as I said yesterday, there are two kinds of people in this world.
Tully:People in recovery who know that they are you and people in recovery who think that they're not.
Tully:But nobody's not in recovery.
Tully:Everybody's in.
Tully:If you're a human being, you're recovering from something and it's a lifelong process.
Tully:So my question would sort of piggyback on that idea, even though you already described it so well, what would you say going forward?
Tully:Because if recovery is a lifelong process, what does that look like?
Tully:Or what do you hope that looks like going forward?
Byron:Well, first and foremost, the amends that need to be made are specific.
Byron:You know, it's not.
Byron:I can't apologize to everyone.
Byron:I sinned against specific people in that context.
Byron:So that's.
Byron:That's important.
Byron:And like I said, those things are underway and I am willing.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Byron:Eager, ready, you know, let's do it.
Byron:Fire away.
Byron:For me, personally, I want.
Byron:It's kind of that Spurgeon quote, repentance to out kick the sin sort of thing.
Byron:I am so bought into what we're doing.
Byron:I want to be in the future.
Byron:I want to be an incarnate piece of hope for people that it's not always going to be this way.
Byron:I'm living proof for sure.
Byron:And whatever messaging God allows me to have for sure on the interior of my life, I want to continue to dig because I've only just begun, really, and will never finish, but have only just begun.
Byron:And I'm so excited about figuring out how jacked up I really am.
Byron:You know, John refers to the alter ego in me as Maurice that is so, so confused and beat up by these things that cause harm to other people.
Byron:The way my mind works, if you give me, like, if you categorize something for me that I'm thinking, I'm in if it's validated.
Byron:And John's been that in my life.
Byron:So I'm on that journey to process through those things in real.
Byron:It's been so long.
Byron:I didn't know they were there.
Byron:I was.
Byron:You ever seen somebody walk through a cobweb in the distance?
Byron:They look crazy.
Byron:So it's like one cobweb after another cobweb I was walking through and couldn't figure it out.
Byron:I'm grateful for the suffering that has occurred because it's cracked that wide open.
Byron:And then additionally, as my children Lauren, Wade, Blake are concerned, I need to recover some things there.
Byron:My youngest and my ex wife and I Robin talked about this.
Byron:He was on the tail end of the older two moving out of the house he received.
Byron:The father he grew up with, he lost the most of.
Byron:And there are some amends that needs to take place in that space.
Byron:And so I'm excited about showing up as the father they grew up with and taking it from there.
Byron:So an example of God's grace and power to anyone who cares to listen in that regard.
Byron:Don't think I'm done and continue to work.
Byron:I'm excited about that.
Byron:But that that priority for me is a very tight circle of rider dyers over here.
Byron:As it should be that I want to spend the rest of my life not making up for what I've done, but doing it better than I ever did before without conditions.
Byron:They don't put conditions on me.
Byron:And then also with my ex wife honoring her in any way that I can, some I'm legally required and responsible to do but I want to get back in a position where I can do that.
Byron:I would also like which is not going to work to stay the hell out of the headlines.
Byron:But you know Tully, and to to this question, I tried everything.
Byron:I've applied for bar back jobs and FedEx warehouse and all kinds of things I've tried.
Byron:But you do that online, they google your name, you're done, right?
Byron:And God said you got one path, so take it.
Byron:And so I'm living by faith in that space and that will encompass all of those things.
Jean:So I really like in your answer to Tullian's question, I really love that live piece of this and I think that'll be such an encouragement to people listening.
Jean:It's not like here is the nice little bow I put on this.
Jean:You're like, I still have to make amends for these things.
Jean:Right?
Jean:And so it's such a 180 degree shift from the way we normally talk about it.
Jean:And we spoke about this at dinner a couple of weeks ago.
Jean:We like to talk about our sin like nicely packaged sermon illustrations.
Jean:Like the end of it was this victorious moment.
Jean:We all had a hug and we prayed the Lord's Prayer.
Jean:It was amazing.
Jean:And you're like, yeah, we still find it hard to talk to each other sometimes.
Jean:I mean, that's real life.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Jean:And I really appreciate that.
Tully:Transparency.
Tully:My oldest son, Gabe, lived with Stacy and me for six months.
Tully:The first year Stacy and I were married in Texas.
Tully:And we were sitting on the front porch one night, and we were talking through all this stuff, what he.
Tully:What I had done, what I had put my family through.
Tully:And up until that point, we had had a lot of the hard conversations I had with all three of my kids.
Tully:Amends had been made, all of that stuff.
Tully:And I just felt compelled, for whatever reason, sitting on the front porch that night, to apologize to Gabe again.
Tully:And he looked at me and he said, dad, I know that you're sorry.
Tully:I know you've.
Tully:That's clear.
Tully:I don't doubt that at all.
Tully:You've apologized to Jenna, you've apologized to Nate.
Tully:You've apologized to me, you've apologized to Mom.
Tully:And I believe it.
Tully:I've seen it, and I believe it sincere.
Tully:He said, but the one thing you haven't apologized for to your kids is for hurting someone they love.
Jean:Wow.
Tully:And, dude, at that point, I was like, dude, you're right.
Tully:And I didn't not do that, because I had thought about it and decided not to.
Tully:It hadn't even occurred to me to do that, as sad as that sounds.
Tully:And it was then that I realized when Martin Luther said, all of life is repentance, it started to make sense to me when any.
Tully:Anytime someone asks me, have you repented?
Tully:My answer is always yes and no.
Tully:Yes, for those things that have been brought to my attention that I.
Tully:That I need to repent for.
Tully:But there's a whole shitload of things that I don't even know about that I need to repent for.
Tully:And God in his gracious timing, brings those things to the surface in his time.
Byron:Yeah.
Byron:In.
Byron:In my life, because of, you know, my run into the darkness for a long period of time.
Byron:There are other amendment amends that I need to make with people that are now that will never be named, people that were hurt by me.
Byron:And as God brings those into my path, I want to do that because it releases them and it releases me.
Byron:The dead center of what I did is Robin.
Byron:Hurt her the most.
Byron:And she described to me what it did to her in ways that were horrifying.
Byron:And it was important.
Byron:Is important that stays center and then move out from the collateral there.
Byron:But my kids know.
Byron:My kids know, and it was important for them to know, like, I'll get to you in a minute here with them.
Byron:So I.
Byron:I totally understand that.
Byron:And if you work backwards from that and there.
Byron:There's a.
Byron:There's a lot of skepticism in her.
Byron:That's fine.
Byron:She should be.
Byron:I told her, you should be really skeptical and ask me anything you want to ask me.
Byron:Clarify anything.
Byron:I'm not going to get it.
Byron:All right.
Byron:Whatever is there, you know, I'll.
Byron:I'll own in that regard.
Byron:But it kind of started there.
Byron:And I think as people observe it, that's.
Byron:That's ground zero for sure.
Byron:And as it moves out from there, I wouldn't say it becomes easier, doesn't.
Byron:But it becomes more fluid.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Byron:Does that make sense?
Tully:Totally.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Jean:I want to take something you said and say something to the folks that are listening because I think it's important.
Jean:Your repentance to someone is not to exact a response.
Jean:And I think you're modeling that really well.
Jean:Like, you may get suspicion, you may get distrust, you may get unforgiveness, you.
Tully:May get slapped in the face at the attempt.
Jean:You are owning it because it is yours to own and you're taking it back from them.
Jean:This wasn't you, it's me.
Jean:Because it can be paralyzing.
Jean:Thinking through, like, what will the response be?
Jean:How can I elicit this particular thing?
Jean:And I love what you said, and.
Tully:I think piggybacking on that.
Tully:I counsel people all the time.
Tully:When you're apologizing, making amends, don't ever ask the next question, will you forgive me?
Jean:Right.
Tully:Ever.
Tully:Because now you're putting a burden back on them to respond to what you did.
Tully:So.
Tully:And you know, the tricky part about making amends is some people will not be ready for you to make amends with them.
Jean:Sure.
Tully:And maybe in this life, you will never be able to make amends with this particular person face to face or in any form of communication, and living with that and recognizing that, and recognizing that an attempt, an untimely attempt to make amends with this particular person is actually unloving to that person.
Byron:Agreed.
Tully:Because they can't handle the communication.
Tully:They can't handle the connection.
Tully:They can't, you know, it's a trigger for them.
Tully:Now God will hopefully get them to a place where they might be able to.
Tully:But that's hard because when you're.
Tully:When you get to a point like you have been where you are genuinely sorry, you feel the pain that you've caused others, and you want to say sorry to everybody, the temptation then is to go, well, now I'm going to force.
Tully:I am going to force this to happen.
Tully:So this.
Tully:This now becomes about me feeling unburdened by saying.
Jean:Purging my conscience.
Tully:Right.
Tully:By saying sorry to everybody.
Tully:And not.
Tully:Not everybody approves of being thrown up on.
Tully:And so it's tricky.
Tully:It's.
Tully:It's.
Tully:I'm still learning how to navigate all.
Byron:That, you know, as you're saying this, I didn't even realize that was a problem, honestly.
Byron:And my motivations, at least right now, our level, but kind of intuitively understand that, like, to the degree I've got a very close friend who's loved me, and he's one of the few that stuck around that's.
Byron:I'm using him as a sounding board.
Byron:He's guiding me, like, do I do this?
Byron:Because he was in that circle and is this appropriate?
Byron:How do I do it?
Byron:And he's like, well, let's just start here, Because I don't trust my motives to stay where they are.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Byron:And one of the interesting things about my circumstance, having nothing to lose.
Byron:I'm not really driven to get it.
Byron:To get whatever that thing is.
Byron:I don't need it, you know, so it is really, right now, at least, very sincere.
Byron:And you are exactly right.
Byron:Repentance for me includes agreeing with people's description of me while I was doing those things.
Tully:Right.
Byron:So they have to have the freedom to come forward and say those things.
Byron:And I don't qualify.
Byron:Put conditions, blame things, but own them.
Byron:And there are a lot of people out there that don't believe I would be receptive to it.
Byron:And I understand why.
Byron:I have a cousin in my family.
Byron:I have.
Byron:I still talk to one.
Byron:I sat down with him and said, where were you?
Byron:Why didn't you.
Byron:How come you bailed?
Byron:Like, this is not.
Byron:We were.
Byron:We've been family our entire life.
Byron:And he said two things.
Byron:I didn't know what to say, and I knew you wouldn't receive it.
Byron:Mm.
Byron:And he was exactly right.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Byron:He was exactly right.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Jean:I want to ask you a hard question.
Tully:Okay.
Jean:Can I ask you a hard one, Please.
Jean:And let you give feedback on it?
Jean:Because it was one that popped in my mind as you were when you.
Jean:When you were telling your story.
Jean:And I thought if I was listening to this, I would probably ask this.
Jean:You described a scenario with.
Jean:With you.
Jean:With what's below the sinkhole where you were.
Jean:And I'm paraphrasing, but asking Robin to give you what you never had.
Jean:And so you kept going to her and going to her, and it just never materialized.
Jean:Right.
Byron:Correct.
Jean:And right on the heels of that, you then said, and this woman comes along.
Jean:And it happened.
Jean:If I was listening to that, I would hear.
Jean:What I would hear is, oh, poor Byron, he was so empty and unfulfilled.
Jean:And then along comes this.
Jean:And that's what happened.
Jean:And I think knowing you, what you've described to me is the truth is I was looking, searching, looking, searching, looking, asking Robin.
Jean:And I finally gave up and I stopped asking her and I went and found somebody else who would answer the question, is that fair?
Byron:That's fair.
Byron:That's true.
Byron:I sinned against that person too.
Jean:Yes.
Byron:So let's be clear.
Jean:No, no question, let's be clear.
Byron:And to be brutal towards myself, used that relationship.
Tully:Sure.
Jean:In there.
Byron:But I, I, when I spoke to my ex wife, did say I'd given up.
Byron:I turned to the wall, went to the basement, the garage of my life and was leaving.
Byron:So I switched hosts in that way.
Byron:Wasn't planning on it, you know, that sort of thing, but was completely vulnerable to it.
Byron:But what you're saying is exactly right.
Jean:The reason I asked that is because there would be such a potential for misunderstanding, especially in something like this, of saying, like, oh, poor Byron, sure, this, you know, the ball rolled by the dog and he just chased it.
Byron:Yeah.
Byron:Not, not, not Robin's fault at all.
Jean:Agreed.
Byron:Not Robin's fault at all.
Byron:My sin, my actions.
Byron:I ground her heart to dust and walked, walked away.
Tully:And I think the, and this is a massive misconception I've discovered out there regarding affairs.
Tully:Most people assume that if a woman has an affair, it's because she's trying to fill an emotional need.
Tully:And if a man has an affair, it's because he's trying to fill a sexual need.
Jean:That's the physical, the narrative, always.
Tully:And the fact of the matter is, while the headlines sell, if sex is involved, that wasn't at all what it was when it came to that.
Tully:That was not what I was after.
Tully:I wasn't going after that.
Tully:And very much like you felt like, man, I had this, I had a great life.
Tully:If my life was made up of 10 boxes, nine of them were checked and the one that was only partially checked was the marriage box.
Tully:And it was because I wanted more out of it than I thought I deserved or I wanted more out of it, yeah, I deserved more than this.
Tully:And instead of looking at my life and looking at what God had given me and going, it's not perfect and it's not supposed to be eternally satisfying, but it's a gift.
Tully:And there are things that I can work on here that can make it more satisfying over time, but I was just impatient.
Tully:I was an impatient opportunist.
Tully:And when I saw an opportunity to fill that void with a gift that had not been given to me by God, it's just, you know, take it.
Byron:Yeah.
Byron:And I think at the end of the day, what I did, it so painfully fits into a stereotype across the spectrum and on some levels is just so pathetic that I can wrap it in all of this discovery that I've had and in this conversation.
Byron:But at the end of the day, I was a schmuck, you know, and a brutal one at that.
Byron:In this.
Byron:In this event that happened in my life and took so many people down.
Byron:Now, at the same time that we're talking about this, it is not my plan to go on the rest of my life groveling.
Tully:Right, sure.
Byron:Yeah.
Byron:And Christians have a tendency to make you do that.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Tully:To prove your repentance.
Byron:They do that.
Byron:No, no.
Byron:I owe them something.
Tully:Right.
Byron:There's no question about that.
Byron:One conversation is not going to do it.
Byron:This is part of that conversation.
Byron:But they make people who have failed greatly grovel and crawl when you can smell the fattened calf being cooked in the grace of God and the feast being made for them wafting over all of that stuff.
Byron:And it's hard to reconcile those things now.
Byron:There is, I think, in people a sense of needed justice in these circumstances that's painful for them because no crime was committed but violations were made in terms of what is required by us in our marriages.
Byron:And those certain things, I can't claw that back.
Byron:I can't get back, get that back.
Byron:If I could, I would.
Byron:And I would say in my darkest moments, lying in the dark, even in the midst of my sin, the thought that haunted me was what I was doing to her and was just kind of constantly talking myself out of worrying about it.
Byron:She's so demented and so diabolical in so many ways.
Byron:I can't ever get that back for her, for my kids.
Byron:And you just expand the circle.
Byron:And I think the difference between groveling and true repentance and contrition is groveling in these spaces is trying.
Byron:Trying to get the approval and to get back where I was and get a status and to get back into this space.
Byron:Repentance is.
Byron:I've accepted the fact that can never be put back.
Byron:Can never be put back.
Byron:And I'm not even asking anyone to do it.
Byron:My ex wife owes me nothing.
Byron:And By God's grace.
Byron:I don't know how she's.
Byron:Let's be friends and let's be civil and I hope you find joy in your life.
Byron:And I'm like, mm, yeah.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Byron:What?
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Byron:In the hell is that Mm.
Jean:Grace.
Byron:Yeah.
Byron:100%.
Byron:And she gets it.
Byron:She gets it.
Byron:I don't know if she'll be a fan of this show.
Byron:Not my episode for sure, but the messaging, definitely.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Byron:She gets it.
Byron:She gets it wired.
Byron:And unfortunately what I did helped her get it more.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Byron:But I.
Byron:That was astonishing.
Byron:I didn't understand that.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Byron:Even the fact that she was.
Byron:Sit down and talk with me.
Byron:But to back to your original question.
Byron:Not at all.
Jean:Yeah.
Byron:Her.
Jean:Right.
Byron:That's what's in the.
Byron:I was praying.
Byron:I wrote that prayer for her.
Jean:Yeah.
Byron:You did nothing.
Byron:It was not your fault.
Byron:You were enough.
Unknown Speaker D:All of it.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Jean:Well.
Jean:And I think that dichotomy is helpful of teasing that out because I don't want someone to mishear it and think that you are casting blame any way other than right here.
Byron:No.
Byron:And I appreciate that.
Byron:And as she's going to be pissed that her name came up so much, but that I.
Byron:What I said in that context was I'm.
Byron:I'm sincere as I've ever been in my life.
Byron:I don't know if I say it right or do it right, but if you can catch a glimpse of that blind spot on me, tell me, tell me.
Byron:I'll adjust.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Tully:And I mean, I think going back to the comment you made regarding motives just to take some of the pressure off of you, which is a truth I've had to accept about myself and the rest of humanity.
Tully:Our motives are always mixed.
Byron:I know that.
Tully:I know they'll never be pure.
Tully:My.
Tully:The motivational structure of my heart is jacked up.
Tully:There's, there's, there's loving and they're selfish in every decision make.
Byron:I know you well enough not to say perfect.
Byron:I said level.
Tully:No, no, I know.
Tully:Yeah, no, exactly.
Byron:I'm aware.
Tully:Exactly.
Tully:I know, I know, I know.
Tully:But I mean, for anybody listening, thinking, okay, is my motivate.
Tully:Like your motivation's never going to be.
Tully:There was a couple that came to see me years ago when I was at Coral Ridge and they were contemplating a move because the husband had been offered a job in a different state and they wanted to meet with me to discuss it.
Tully:And they started the meeting by saying, now, as we move forward in the decision making process, our greatest concern is that we move forward with pure motives.
Tully:And I didn't even know what they had come to talk to me about.
Jean:Oh, wow.
Tully:And I said, okay, time out.
Tully:Before we even begin, let me take some of the pressure off of you right now.
Tully:You're never going to have pure motives, ever.
Tully:Your motives are always going to be mixed in everything you do and every decision you make.
Tully:So we accept that and go, God, protect me.
Tully:Protect me and others from me.
Tully:Work in my heart what needs to be worked in, and help me to accept the fact that I'm always bringing a narcissistic, selfish component to the table.
Jean:Always.
Byron:You're right.
Tully:You're exactly right.
Jean:Well, that's why you have to have a Paul's all in your life.
Jean:Right?
Jean:I mean, you have to have that friend that's Bob Bradshaw for me.
Jean:That is that guy that you go, listen, you have.
Jean:The door is open.
Jean:It's off the hinges.
Jean:Come in, shine the light everywhere.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah, yeah.
Tully:And I mean, I actually told Paul's all not long ago on the phone.
Tully:I was asking him his advice about something.
Tully:It was a challenge that I was facing, and I was asking him to help me think through it.
Tully:And I said, paul, I'm very aware of the fact that me even wanting to talk to you about this, that there's got to be inside of me, a part of me that wants to convince you of my perspective so that you'll be on my side.
Tully:And I know that now.
Tully:I don't know where that is.
Tully:I don't.
Byron:I don't.
Tully:I'm not conscious of that, but I know it's in there.
Tully:And he was just like, I taught you well, my little padawan.
Tully:But it's true.
Tully:I mean, there's just I in every.
Tully:In doing this podcast, in telling my story, in preaching sermons and writing and writing my story, in confessing my sin, in everything that I do, there is always going to be a selfish motive somewhere.
Tully:I may not be able to detect it.
Tully:I may not know where it's coming from.
Tully:I may not be conscious, but it's there.
Tully:And that helps to keep the delusion at bay to some degree.
Byron:It's very helpful.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah, it's very helpful.
Byron:And I hope I'm not putting myself under that pressure by telling people.
Byron:I would be skeptical.
Tully:Right.
Byron:I don't.
Byron:Trust me.
Byron:Yeah, I think it sounds.
Byron:It's coming from.
Tully:I think this is legit coming from.
Tully:Jury's out.
Tully:Yeah, sure.
Byron:Coming from good places.
Byron:And I can do a flawless impersonation of a repentant person.
Tully:Me, too.
Tully:I was Telling.
Jean:So I'm Academy Award revel.
Tully:I was.
Tully:I was telling.
Tully:I was telling Valerie Do.
Tully:I mean, I was telling Byron off camera that one of the narratives out there about me from that time was that I fled church discipline.
Tully:And I said, that's the furthest thing from the truth.
Tully:I mean, I was.
Tully:At no point in time was ever offered a pathway of discipline and restoration.
Tully:I was defrocked.
Tully:And that was my discipline.
Tully:And I said, and it's actually a gift, because had I been given hoops to jump through, I would have jumped through every one of them at that time to get my old life back.
Tully:I would have faked it.
Tully:I would have feigned it.
Tully:I would have pretended that I was more sorry than I was just to get my stuff back, to get my life back.
Tully:So in my case, it was a gift from God that no church said, jump through these hoops and prove that you're sorry.
Tully:Because I would have done it, and it would have proved nothing.
Tully:Maybe on the outside, to them, it would have proven something, but I would have known what I was doing.
Jean:You know, I don't.
Jean:I mean, you.
Jean:I don't know that you know this.
Jean:I asked for it.
Jean:I went and asked, said, okay, what's the path?
Tully:Right.
Tully:Yeah.
Jean:I.
Jean:Give me the hoop.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Jean:Now, I'm not waiting for you to give it.
Jean:Give it to me.
Jean:This is what I was told.
Jean:There is no path that could restore Jean Le Roux.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Byron:I just wanted a job.
Jean:But here's the thing.
Byron:Income.
Jean:But without that, we're not sitting here.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Jean:Because I would still be chasing.
Tully:Yeah, absolutely.
Jean:And so you.
Jean:You.
Jean:You have to know when your life, sitting there, listening, feels like nothing.
Jean:Nothing is right.
Jean:The alignment is off.
Jean:On my life.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Jean:I'm pulling into the ditch.
Jean:Always Listen.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Jean:You're not off course, right?
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Jean:You're not.
Jean:You're not off course.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Jean:As crazy as that.
Byron:Now, Jean has been this accountability bullshit meter for me.
Byron:It just doesn't.
Byron:It just.
Byron:It's not that he has a hair trigger on this gun.
Byron:It's a motion sensor.
Tully:Yeah.
Tully:That's good.
Tully:We need those people.
Byron:You know, he.
Byron:When I was living with them and on my sojourn, I would.
Byron:I would start talking.
Byron:He's like, cooking.
Byron:He's.
Byron:Again, I'm going back.
Byron:I wanted you to cook during the recording of this, but you won't do it anyway.
Byron:I'd be saying something and, hey, can I talk to you for a minute?
Byron:And he would roll the eyes of his heart.
Byron:Thankfully, not the eyes of his head.
Byron:And he would listen for a minute and he would go, you're so full of shit.
Byron:No, no foot notes, no qualifiers.
Byron:Just kept stirring the gumbo.
Byron:And I was like, yeah, you're right.
Byron:And just walk out.
Jean:Well, as my therapist says, if you spot it, you got it.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Tully:Yeah, right.
Jean:So, I mean.
Tully:And I mean, we, you know, we need that.
Tully:My.
Tully:My kids are that for me, which is a gift.
Tully:My wife is that for me, which is a gift.
Tully:And it's exhausting, to be honest with you.
Tully:It's a terrible way to live.
Tully:Trying to fake or pretend or, you know, in some way present some level of sincerity.
Tully:That's not true.
Byron:Just.
Tully:It's exhausting.
Byron:This is going to sound weird, speaking of sincerity, but after I kind of had the awareness and looked towards a home, Grace bent down beside me and said, let's go, kid.
Byron:You know, one of the first things I realized that I had hadn't experienced in a long, long time.
Byron:And this is not going to make sense to anybody.
Byron:Maybe it'll make sense to the two of you.
Byron:I.
Byron:I had forgot what it was like to have a clear conscience.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah, dude.
Tully:Oh, my God.
Byron:I.
Byron:I mean, I did all this stuff and I.
Byron:There's guilt all the way around, but the ownership of it all, I was like, yeah, that's weird.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah, that's.
Byron:That's a weird.
Jean:It is to say it out loud.
Tully:And to some degree, we will go to our graves with secrets.
Tully:There's not a person that has ever lived.
Jean:I did not tell all of my stories.
Byron:No, to be clear, it lasted about a half hour.
Tully:It was great.
Tully:Yeah, but.
Tully:I mean, but those snapshots.
Tully:I know, exactly.
Tully:There was a.
Tully:When, when my news broke, I.
Tully:I was confronted by the elders of the church I was serving at the time.
Tully:On a Thursday, I sat down with my kids and told them on Friday.
Tully:And it was announced from the pulpit on Sunday.
Tully:And by 1:00 in the afternoon, every news source in this country was reaching out to me for a statement.
Tully:And as embarrassing as all of that was for me, there was a sense of relief.
Tully:Yeah, like, okay, it's out there.
Tully:Like, I'm out.
Tully:Even the idea that I would no longer be allowed to be a pastor was a relief to me.
Tully:I'm like, okay, I don't know what my life's going to look like from this point forward, but at least it ain't that, right?
Tully:And I'm.
Tully:And I'm.
Tully:I'm out.
Tully:I don't have to keep secrets anymore.
Tully:When it comes to that stuff.
Jean:Well, before we jump ahead to a future episode, we're, we're nipping at what Community does for people.
Jean:Like, you can't know.
Jean:You're like me.
Jean:Knowing me is not enough.
Jean:It's not a three way mirror.
Jean:So that community is needed.
Jean:We're going to pick that up in the future.
Byron:Yeah.
Jean:Just one last, Give you the last word.
Byron:One last caveat to the broken, busted, jacked up, hopeless, dark.
Byron:I blew it.
Byron:Nobody loves me.
Byron:Everybody hates me.
Byron:I think I'll go eat worms.
Byron:Something that's central to our ethos here and core values is that you have to hug the cactus.
Unknown Speaker D:Yes.
Byron:Hard.
Jean:Yeah.
Byron:No one left to blame.
Byron:Every way that we've said it and when you're on the this side of it, it makes no sense at all.
Byron:You run from it.
Byron:You can't be convinced of it.
Byron:You're going to fight for people to blame.
Byron:It's everybody's fault.
Byron:It's my mom's fault.
Byron:Wasn't my mom's fault.
Byron:My mom had a condition she didn't even understand.
Byron:And I love my mom in spite of it, but quite frankly, she was crazy.
Byron:But when you get on this side of it, you go, why didn't I think of that before?
Byron:And making that transition from one threshold to another is the greater the sin, the more terrifying it is.
Byron:But the greater the sin when it happens, the more liberating it is.
Byron:And it starts there.
Byron:I mean, it literally, literally starts there.
Byron:And I, I only kind of discovered that because people were speaking into my life about it, like own it so that you can start limping away from it and find out whatever normal.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Byron:Is out there.
Byron:But it's.
Byron:I'm at a place where it's not frightening to do it.
Byron:Quite frankly.
Byron:I've been chomping at the ever loving bit to do it, but I was at a place when all I did was hide, hide, hide.
Byron:Isolated myself, wouldn't talk to people, didn't want to deal with it.
Byron:If you even addressed it with me at all.
Byron:My nervous system just went into shock.
Byron:You know, I didn't, I was so resistant, so defensive, so angry.
Byron:So blame shifting, which didn't make any sense at all.
Byron:And then when I softened, it was the key to that, unlocked the door.
Tully:So self awareness is, I say all the time that self awareness is a sanctified life.
Tully:That's what it is.
Tully:It's a growing awareness of my need for grace because I'm discovering more and more caverns in my life that need that grace what would you say?
Tully:And this question just came to me.
Tully:But your answer would be, I'm sure, very insightful to the pastor or to the Christian leader.
Tully:And I have two of them in mind.
Tully:The ones who live in contexts where they have secrets and they know they have secrets, and there's no way in hell they can share those secrets with anybody for fear of all the consequences we've described.
Tully:And for the pastor or the church leader, Christian leader, who has secrets but denies that they have secrets or is unaware of the fact that they have secrets.
Tully:They have a speck or log in their own eye and they can't see it.
Tully:And I have some very particular people in mind in category number two, because both of those people are in bondage.
Tully:Whether you have secrets and you know it and you're crying over them and you can't sleep over them, but you got to keep up the facade.
Tully:We know people like that.
Tully:And we also know the people who would sit here and listen to this and go, what are you guys talking about?
Tully:The Bible's very clear.
Tully:You.
Tully:You obey and you do these things.
Tully:And if you don't do these things, these are the consequences.
Tully:What's all this talk about going under this.
Tully:This is all psycho babble.
Jean:Yeah.
Byron:I'll start with the last category.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Byron:And say to that person who's critical in that way, your pastor has never, ever, ever been honest with you.
Tully:Right.
Byron:Not one time.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Byron:Been vulnerable and transparent with you.
Byron:Because of you.
Tully:Right.
Byron:Because the moment that they're honest and vulnerable, that Jenga stack of life is going to crumble.
Jean:Yeah.
Jean:You're getting curated confessions.
Byron:Yeah.
Jean:You're not getting live sin.
Byron:No.
Byron:No.
Byron:Curated confessions are the things that when they.
Byron:When your pastor does that, says their names are sin, you're admirable of their virtue.
Byron:But no pastor in their right mind giving the machinery of the church is ever going to get up and show it and be honest.
Byron:You cannot.
Byron:You lose your livelihood, your social capital, your network, possibly your marriage, your family, whatever it is.
Byron:I'm not assuming that every pastor's out there in crisis mode.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Byron:Like I was.
Byron:But it's not.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Byron:And so my answer to the pastor who has all these secrets is that the air at the top of the high moral ground is thin.
Tully:It's well said and very well said.
Byron:Are going to suffocate up there.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Tully:That's good.
Byron:And the only way to fill your lungs is by getting in the lowlands.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Jean:Down in the solid gold down in.
Byron:The bayou Perfect and perfectly said.
Byron:There are Consequences ahead of you.
Byron:Yeah, that's obvious.
Byron:If there's something real that needs to be dealt with.
Byron:But I would say to them, your priorities are jacked up.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Byron:You're so confused.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Byron:Your perspective on life is distorted.
Byron:What is more important for you to gain the whole world and to lose your soul or to lose your sanity and for it to collapse?
Byron:And you don't want to do it the way that I did it.
Byron:But if you're going to do it and you need to get out of it because you're in agony and you're a.
Byron:In your own mind, a hypocrite every time you get up and preach.
Byron:I've been there.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Byron:In the past with things that went unconfessed that I eventually had to confess.
Byron:The way to do it is what I would recommend.
Byron:And this is just very practical.
Byron:I don't know.
Byron:And you can correct me.
Byron:And you can correct me.
Byron:I don't know that there's a way to do it without exiting.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Byron:And I would say land the plane, get out.
Byron:Not for the reasons I did.
Byron:Go find some people that can hug the cactus with you.
Byron:Lepers with less fingers or what?
Byron:However you want to describe it.
Byron:Deal with it with the people that really matter before people that don't matter become involved in it.
Tully:Right.
Tully:That's well said.
Byron:Get.
Byron:Get restored over a period of time.
Byron:And if that doesn't work.
Byron:Yeah, Damn it.
Byron:Move to Jupiter.
Tully:Yeah.
Tully:You can be that way here.
Tully:Yeah, no, that's.
Byron:Listen, we.
Byron:We in the future, I predict this.
Byron:I can see it.
Byron:And I know you're already doing this.
Byron:I mean, this thing is like, you get the pliers, the wire cutters, and somebody says you need to diffuse the bomb.
Byron:Cut the red wire.
Byron:You open the damn thing and every wire is red.
Byron:Yeah, every wire is red.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Byron:But there are certain people who have the glasses that can go this and this and that.
Byron:You are not your best counselor in that moment.
Byron:What you're going to want to do is just go run out and say it all.
Byron:That's a mistake.
Byron:You need to say it to the people that it matters, and you need to consider who's involved in it.
Byron:It doesn't have to be an enormous explosion and you're going to be brutalized by the church.
Byron:Yeah, Brutalized.
Byron:I've seen it handled well in 30 years of ministry one time.
Jean:Can I throw in one thing here?
Jean:Help.
Jean:Misfitpreachers.com.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Jean:The email that all of us want to get is from either of those guys who Say I can't tell anybody else.
Tully:Right.
Jean:Because if you're not worse than us.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Jean:And so whatever it is, unless you are safe, I mean, you might be.
Jean:It takes some work.
Jean:But we are safe as confessors and counselors to give counsel, I should say, because that.
Jean:That's got to be.
Jean:So help@misterpreachers.com still vault.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Byron:You're not gonna shock me.
Byron:Yeah.
Byron:You're not.
Jean:We gotcha.
Tully:We all have a very low anthropology.
Jean:Yes, we do.
Jean:Thank you.
Tully:Broken people.
Byron:Here's what I would say.
Byron:Amen to the pastors that are out.
Jean:There, even though I'm going to stop us.
Byron:Even the ones that haven't, haven't been caught.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Byron:Looking at that woman is the same as climbing into bed.
Tully:Right?
Tully:Right.
Byron:According to the law.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Byron:According to the law, you're already disqualified.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Byron:You're covered by grace.
Byron:There's Christ, there's the struggle, there's sanctification and those sorts of things.
Byron:But the last thing I'll add, when this most recent thing happened, I sat down and wrote something.
Byron:I posted it and then went, what am I doing?
Byron:People posted stuff about me.
Byron:And I jerked it off and it was in favor of.
Byron:It wasn't.
Byron:I said, now, with the sample size and the variety of these things that are happening, somebody at some point has got to ask the question, is the environment of the church and ministry itself a contributing factor?
Byron:And I would say that it is.
Byron:Oh, no question in this regard, because you can never be honest.
Tully:Nope.
Byron:And if a pastor tells you they.
Tully:Are, they're lying, they're being dishonest.
Byron:And if they come to you and tell you, like, wow, bad things, just know that there are worse things below.
Byron:They're hiding.
Tully:Right.
Byron:They're like, you know how the dentist shakes your jaw so you can't feel the needle?
Byron:These are not the droids you're looking for sort of thing.
Byron:But I will land this.
Byron:There are certain industries and certain professions that have a phenomenon known as identity offset.
Byron:It's a syndrome.
Byron:Athletes, executives, military salespeople, pastors.
Byron:And what that means is in order to do a job, take, take, take pastors, for instance.
Byron:In order to do this job, you have to enter into it, typically very young.
Byron:And once you do, you don't have normal experiences that other people have.
Byron:It's just a weird life.
Byron:The Jenga's there and you're.
Byron:You're a version of a person that people need to show up.
Byron:High moral ground.
Byron:Heirs, them.
Byron:Right.
Byron:But that's what they need from you to live as an example, the pressure there is incredible.
Byron:Over time, what happens is their identity as just a human being becomes offset by the Avatar that they're living in as a pastor, and it creates this incredible distortion, incredible loneliness, incredible isolation.
Byron:You can never be human fully.
Byron:Never, ever.
Byron:That's what the glass house thing is all about.
Jean:Correct.
Byron:And it is a torture chamber recipe for disaster.
Tully:Absolutely.
Byron:I don't know.
Jean:And let me say.
Jean:And if you're a pastor and you don't believe what he just said, why do you cringe every time somebody introduces you at a dinner party?
Jean:As this is my pastor and you know my night is over.
Tully:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jean:That's how it feels.
Byron:Put the beer.
Jean:Because you become the avatar.
Byron:Hide the beer.
Byron:The pastor's here.
Byron:Right?
Jean:We grew up in a different world of beer.
Byron:No, no, I grew up.
Byron:I'm just saying I have deep empathy and sympathy for them.
Byron:Yeah, sure.
Byron:There are so many leaders of churches that are in this trap who are human, who failed, and they.
Byron:And here's.
Byron:Here's how it works.
Byron:You just pray, which is ironic that it never comes out.
Tully:Right.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah, yeah.
Tully:Always.
Tully:Right, Right Comes out.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Jean:Good luck, always.
Tully:And, well, and I mean, what we're saying here and what you're saying is the church as it is, as it is currently constructed, is the scariest place for fallen people to fall down and broken people to break things when it should be the safest place.
Tully:And it's the scariest for the leaders, for the pastors who are just as human as everybody else that's in the church.
Byron:This is why I love you, because you're getting away with murder in this context.
Byron:Murder.
Jean:I can't believe he lowered their expectations so low.
Jean:No.
Jean:Any effort is considered gold.
Byron:Do you think if you put me behind pulpit for a millisecond, that I would be accepting of the veneer that we typically live in?
Tully:Right.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Byron:I can do surgery in a millisecond on that stuff.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Byron:I would blow hair back on it.
Byron:Because you have to be freed by it, and you're freed from it rather by exposing.
Tully:Right.
Byron:And I'm not going to use my life for the rest of my life because I don't want to be the hero of my own story, but I know.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Byron:I mean, I could.
Byron:I mean, if we just said it.
Byron:You pray to God it never, never comes out.
Byron:It's coming out.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Unknown Speaker D:Yeah.
Jean:All right, so on the next episode, we're going to talk and answer the question, what about the elephant in the room?
Jean:And this is the question we're going to put in the table.
Jean:Did our view of grace actually give us permission to go do the things that we did?
Tully:Love it.
Jean:Stay tuned.
Tully:I've never heard that question before.
Jean:You've been listening to the Misfit preachers.
Tully:Like subscribe and share more grace centered resources@prodigalpodcasts.com that's prodigal P R O D I G A L Podcasts with an s dot com.
